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looking at 135 rankings and the divison

UserPost

10:10 pm
April 29, 2011


Sean Quinn

Member

posts 196

21

It will be a very rude awakening, I promise. There is some excitement in the air right now, something fun will be happening soon.

10:14 pm
April 29, 2011


justsayin

Member

posts 18

22

Hello Keith.

That is my point exactly.

 If you take into consideration Ivan’s current W-L record 1-1 you would think he defiantly is not worthy of being listed in the Canadian top ten.

But if you analyze his past two opponents and their records  you must agree that not only does he deserve to be listed in the Canadian Top Ten he should also be among the top five because of his most recent fights not to mention what Ivan has accomplished in his career.

The only reason that Ivan should not be listed in these standings is that he is competing in a different level of competition than most of the fighters on this list (Joe Lauzon, Urijah Faber, Matt Serra).

Please don't take this the wrong way, that's just how I see it. 

 

Name

Brad Pickett

Nick Name

One Punch

Record

20 – 5 – 0 (Win – Loss – Draw)

 

Name

Aaron Miller

Nick Name

Blood Spiller

Record

9 – 8 – 0 (Win – Loss – Draw) ( 1 NC )

 

Name

Ivan Menjivar

Nick Name

Pride of El Salvador

Record

21 – 8 – 0 (Win – Loss – Draw)

Wins

8 (T)KOs ( 38.1 %)
8 Submissions ( 38.1 %)
5 Decisions ( 23.81 %)

Losses

1 (T)KOs ( 12.5 %)
1 Submissions ( 12.5 %)
5 Decisions ( 62.5 %)
1 Other ( 12.5 %)

10:48 pm
April 29, 2011


Keith Grienke

Admin

posts 714

23

Justsayin, love the discussion.

I agree Menjivar is great. Just do not know if he should be ranked in 135 with zero wins as a Bantamweight and only 1 win in the past four years.

12:38 am
April 30, 2011


Mike Davis

Member

posts 212

24

I see where you are coming from Keith, but I do recall you guys putting Diaz on list cause the level of competition he has faced and it defiently was not cause he has been killing it lately, he was on there do to what he has done.  Now Ivan is the best 135er in the country in my eyes who can beat him? Denis…nah, Wooley no chance!  so if he gets a win here this weekend in the UFC how do you not put him top 3? hell #1 in my books if he gets this win at 129.  After such a long long lay off and his comeback has been short so far but really how can you deny him a spot? 

 

It is kind of hard there and that is how rankings work, I feel he is the best in Canada but then again he has not done much as of late, it depends how you rank someone.  If of recent fights and just pure wins then ya I could understand leaving him out but having a top 10 without him sounds crazy. 

7:45 am
April 30, 2011


Robin Black

Member

posts 235

25

If Ivan wins tonight he enters the "middle five-ish", somewhere in the top ten between 3 and 8 imo

10:08 am
April 30, 2011


Mike Davis

Member

posts 212

26

Robin Black said:

If Ivan wins tonight he enters the "middle five-ish", somewhere in the top ten between 3 and 8 imo


I just put him Ivan so high cause compared to say #2 guy he would have a win over a elite top 135er in the UFC what holds a lot of stock in my eyes.  Only other guy on list with that experiance is Denis who fought in Sengoku, I would place him in top 5 at least.

10:18 am
April 30, 2011


justsayin

Member

posts 18

27

So what if Ivan lost tonight? Does he make the list? Does Hill make the list? Is Hill ranked higher than Ivan?

 If you look only at the current W/L would be (Josh Hill 5-0) (Ivan Menjivar 1-2 or would it be 21-9-0).

No one can say ranking is easy. This is why you need to take in account different factors such as the quality of past opponents to justify the placement of a fighter’s current value.

W/L is an easy way out of creating a ranking system that requires no effort.  It’s great for marketing the fighter but it defiantly is not a true indicator of the Canadian scene.

I am not saying that past opponents should have the ultimate consideration in the rankings, as a matter fact I believe that the up and coming top ten should have as much merit if not more as long as those on the list are justified.

Fighters with padded records whose opponents are 0-0, 1-0, 1-6, working their way into the ranking system really have no merit in a Top Ten. I would much rather see a fighter that has a respectable past record in the Top Ten even if his W/L does not look as good as the fighter with a 5-0. Again you must consider the quality of the opponents.

 Many of the fighters considered for this list did work their way into the ranks and some may have not made great decisions in the past of their choice of match ups or were in the wrong weight class to start with(I’ll fight anyone, I just love to fight”) and I for one, have respect for that. Unfortunately management and marketing may not have been their forte and they did not have the opportunity to have a manager or a promoter that they could trust. After all they make so much money eh!

I’m sure as a MMA fan you will be watching tonight’s fights and some of us who are the lucky ones will remember watching or better yet fighting on the same card as Rory MacDonald vs. Jordan Mien and thinking wow, these guys are going places. RITC, KOTC, EFC, CFC Wreck MMA, and such is why I follow this web site and not the other “news” sites; I want to know who in Canada is next to make it!

Maybe the solution is to separate the “elite” fighters from the new breed of up and comers in order to have a realistic ranking system that we could follow. In the end Keith, it is your system and your site so you will have to make the calls. I give you credit for your efforts and am sure whichever way you choose to rank the Canadian MMA scene it will followed with respect.

 MMA is just beginning, everyone is learning and Canada is a major player, Just look at the card tonight!!

10:54 am
April 30, 2011


Keith Grienke

Admin

posts 714

28

Mike … Diaz was on the list due to all the people he has fought and was 13-11 at the time (or something like that). He will be off the list pretty because of no wins over the past two years.

Justsaying… Hill will be on the list because of his nice record, but mainly because of his win over currently ranked Diego Wilson

As for our rankings, most important factors are current wins in the last 2-3 years, quality of wins, and overall record. We do give points for exciting wins (1st round KO) over boring wins (lay and pray decision) – we consider it a sport and the win is important.

I am playing devil's advocate a bit here as well, but like getting feedback on the system. We do break our guidelines at times.

Tonight will tell us a lot about a ton of Canadians.

11:05 am
April 30, 2011


Keith Grienke

Admin

posts 714

29

I really appreciate the rankings feedback. We don't know everything and incorporate your ideas into our rankings.

I have another issue that we have been thinking about – quality losses. The example is Clarke vs Demarce. I did not want to hijack this discussion so I added a new topic here.

http://topmmanews.com/forum/ca…..ngs/#p3434

Please give us feedback on it.

You guys are great!

7:16 pm
April 30, 2011


Keith Grienke

Admin

posts 714

30

Well Menjivar settled everything tonight. Awesome job.

12:30 am
May 1, 2011


Mike Davis

Member

posts 212

31

where you think he belongs Keith? being the only guy in the top 10 to have a win in the UFC, how much value that hold in you system?

 

great conversation though what I wanted out of this.

10:28 am
May 1, 2011


justsayin

Member

posts 18

32

Robin Black said:

“If Ivan wins tonight he enters the "middle five-ish", somewhere in the top ten between 3 and 8 imo”

Sorry Robin, Ivan is #1 in the Top Ten of Canada. With much due respect our Top Two Canadians need to climb a couple more rungs in the Bantam Weight ladder to get to Ivan’s level!

 

Keith said:

“Hill will be on the list because of his nice record, but mainly because of his win over currently ranked Diego Wilson.”

 

Keith, with all due respect Hill was listed in February 2010 as Out of the top Five with a W/L 2-0. The days of Managers Padding fighter’s records to achieve awareness is transparent and means nothing in my book. I believe a fighter earns his respect and is rewarded by his accomplishments. One Quality win is the first step.

 

Again it’s all about the type of wins/losses, opposition quality, and activity.

12:02 am
May 2, 2011


Mike Davis

Member

posts 212

33

JustSaying I am with you IVAN #1!!!

9:46 am
May 2, 2011


Keith Grienke

Admin

posts 714

34

With a win over Valencia, hard to argue with you Mike.

11:51 am
May 3, 2011


Mike Davis

Member

posts 212

35

now to create another one some time

10:38 pm
May 4, 2011


justsayin

Member

posts 18

36

So here’s another dilemma to ponder.  What happens to the Ranking System when a fighter drops a level to take on a Top Five contender?  

Eric Wilson making a brave attempt for a title shot (or a poorly advised decision), is ranked 5-0 in the Bantamweight division and along comes a Top Ten Featherweight (Rank #6) John Fraser to storm the lower division and secures a title fight for his efforts.

If Fraser loses, what position does he drop off to on the Featherweight list? He certainly wouldn't be a contender for the Top Ten, or would he be?

10:46 pm
May 4, 2011


Keith Grienke

Admin

posts 714

37

The amount of movement from division to division in the regional shows really throws rankings for a loop.

If Fraser loses at 135, it does affect his 145 standing. At this point, I don't think it would kick him out of the rankings. He has beaten guys like Quenneville and those wins are not wiped just because he loses to Wilson at a lighter weight.

11:28 pm
May 5, 2011


Mike Davis

Member

posts 212

38

now for the Wreck fight results to see how else this gets mixed up

10:09 am
May 6, 2011


justsayin

Member

posts 18

39

With completion getting tougher each day, Robin Black said it best, (“There's so many good guys at 135 in Canada. Scary.”)  so is the  completion for recognition getting tougher each day. After all being recognized and having the respect of the MMA industry is why we look at ranking systems, not to mention it sure helps when negotiating your next fight contract.

What’s even scarier is fighter’s dropping a level to accomplish just that and you can’t blame them. A fighter life can be compared to a dog’s; they both have about the same life span, short and sweet.

So getting back to the Canadian Bantamweight Top Ten Rankings who do we have in the top five? Well in my opinion (which by the way means nothing, it’s just the way I see it) I would say the Top Five, after tonight’s fight based on the fighter's activity in the last 24 months is going to be: 

1

Ivan Menjivar

2

John Fraser

3

Eric Wilson

4

Roland Delorme

5

Nick Denis

I truly hope I am wrong in assuming Fraser will beat Wilson for I like Eric and really hope he pulls it off tonight.

Here is the dilemma. What do these top five have in common? Most of them used to fight at 145. Who is coming on down next?

What does that do for remainder 20 fighters out of the Canadian Bantamweight Top Ten? Not a hope in hell to make it to this level, at least until they work their way up respectfully and make smart decisions early in their career. (Promoters, are we ready for 125, you bet!)

Anyways, Good Luck Eric tonight and prove me wrong, please!

11:53 am
May 6, 2011


Dave Mah

Member

posts 7

40

Eric by Ankle lock, midway through the 1st.

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